Super 8 vs. Standard 8 film

One big question when looking at old 8mm film is whether it is Super 8 (production started in 1965) or Regular or Standard 8.

The easy way to tell is to look at the holes in the film and hold the film up to the light. Unwind anywhere from a foot to a few feet until you get past the actual leader (the white or clear part of the film). If it is Super 8, when you hold the film up to the light, you will see one hole that is centered adjacent to each frame. If it isn't, then you don't have Super 8. Sometimes it is difficult to see where the frame starts. I recommend holding the film about chest level and moving the film around until you get the light to reflect just right and show the lines between the frames. Another way to tell is by the first frame on the strip (where the film leader is connected). One last way is the holes are bigger on Std 8mm than the Super 8, and Std 8mm the hole and space around it take up about a quarter of the width of the film. Oh wait, here is one more way. As far as I can tell Std 8mm reels have a smaller circle in the center of the reel. It is about half the size of Super 8. Super 8 appears to be about 1/2 in in diameter. After you look at a dozen or so, you'll get the idea. ;)

Another big question is when looking at that same film, how do I know if it has sound or not. Basically, if you have sound there will be a copper or silver stripe on one or both edges of the film on the bottom of the film (flip it over you will see it if it is there. It will be obvious).

If you want more information, check out:

For a simple and great explanation with real picture (examples): http://www.film-to-video.com/faq.html

For exceptions see: http://www.kolumbus.fi/puistot/S8Manual.htm#Sprocket%20holes

Converting VHS to DVD or Computer Media

General Tidbits I learned

http://forums.macrumors.com/archive/index.php/t-91509.html

Use s-video instead of standard composite (RCA) when possible. S-video will give you the best possible quality and less loss of signal. Well, see below for this debate. :)

VHS or VHS-C is 330×480 (250 lines)
DVD is 720×480 (520 lines)
8mm film (including Super 8 film) is about 1000 lines (I don't know how many pixels that is)
HDV (MiniDV) is: 1440×1080 (810 lines) NOTE: This file format uncompressed is enormous (like 50GB per hour!!!!)

DV, AVI, and MPEG-2 have a max resolution of 720x480 pixels

It is best to store video from film as AVI uncompressed on hard drive (Windows) or store on MiniDV. DVD has the resolution to hold it, but really we are talking about the MPEG-2 standard when we talk about DVDs. This is a lossy technology and not good for frame based film.

This means VHS can safely be archived on MiniDV or AVI. MPEG-2 / DVD may be good enough also. If it is good enough for DVD, it is probably good enough for VHS sourced video. MPEG-2 has a great resolution than VHS, so only issue is the lossy algorithm, but again, it is usually not noticed. Look at all the DVD's we accept as great. However, with High Definition TVs now, some DVDs don't look as good as they used to. It is hard to say if VHS as an uncompressed file would look any better than MPEG-2. Theoretically it is, but will anybody every see it, that is the question. I think the answer is: maybe. ;)

Recording Formats:
http://dvr.about.com/od/dvrs/f/ancamform.htm

Good Overview of different formats used in video records (i.e. camcorders)
http://www.high-techproductions.com/formats.htm

File Formats
NOTE: The following table shows the data rates and file sizes of various compression schemes and their most likely application. Formats were converted from a 30-second DV file. Unless otherwise noted, all formats were produced at a frame rate of 30 frames per second (fps), with CD-quality audio (44.1 kHz, 16-bit sample rate).

File format
Frame size
File size (MB)
Data rate (KB/s)
Application/comments

DV
720x480
103
3527
Excellent quality. DV captured with IEEE 1394 card. Output back to DV, Hi-8 or S-VHS.

AVI uncompressed
720x480
893
30519
Excellent quality but file size and data rates are too high for convenient storage and playback.

MPEG-2 (high data rate)
720x480
39
1336
Excellent quality. Suitable for output to DV, Hi-8 or S-VHS.

MPEG-2 (medium data rate)
720x480
19
657
Excellent quality, but under some conditions compression artifacts may occur. Suitable for output to DV, Hi-8 or S-VHS.

MPEG-2 (low data rate)
720x480
3.6
123
Quality ranges from fair to good, due to obvious compression artifacts. Suitable if large frame size is required, where quality is less important.

MPEG-2 (medium data rate)
640x480
18.5
631
Excellent quality. Suitable for output to Hi-8, S-VHS, or full-screen computer video.

AVI compressed (Indeo video 5.06 compression)
640x480
47
1622
Quality ranges from good to excellent, depending on the compression codec and setting.

AVI compressed (Cinepak compression)
320x240
25
860
Good quality. Suitable for output to standard VHS or video in a window.

MPEG-1 (medium data rate)
320x240
7.2
246
Good quality. Suitable for output to standard VHS or video in a window.

WMV (ASF, MPEG-4)
320x240 Audio: 16 kHz mono
0.39
13
Fair quality. Extremely low file size and data rates make this format ideal for Internet e-mail or posting to the Web.

REAL Video
320x240 Audio: 16 kHz mono
0.39
13
Fair quality. Extremely low file size and data rates make this format ideal for Internet e-mail or posting to the Web.

Copied from: http://www.techimo.com/forum/archive/index.php/t-5551.html

Analog and Digital Signals
Excellent breakdown of each of the types of signals and if they are digital or analog. S-Video and component video are analog.
http://www.rivercable.com/cable3.html

Computer Formats:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Video_codecs

Different Media and Resolutions:
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-VHS

Analog:

• 350×240 (260 lines): Video CD
• 330×480 (250 lines): Umatic, Betamax, VHS, Video8
• 400×480 (300 lines): Super Betamax, Betacam (pro)
• 440×480 (330 lines): analog broadcast
• 560×480 (420 lines): LaserDisc, Super VHS, Hi8
• 670×480 (500 lines): Enhanced Definition Betamax

Digital:

• 720×480 (520 lines): D-VHS, DVD, miniDV, Digital8, Digital Betacam (pro)
• 720×480 (400 lines): Widescreen DVD (anamorphic)
• 1280×720 (720 lines): D-VHS, HD DVD, Blu-ray, HDV (miniDV)
• 1440×1080 (810 lines): HDV (miniDV)
• 1920×1080 (1080 lines): D-VHS, HD DVD, Blu-ray, HDCAM SR (pro)

Cable to use
Source: http://dvr.about.com/od/howtos/ht/a2dvdr.htm
In short use the best possible that your player has. For example if your camcorder has s-video then use s-video. If it or your vcr only have composite (RCA) then use that. According to about.com, you don't need s-video unless your source is something better than vhs such as s-vhs.

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S-Video
Here is one way I thought about it. Theoretically since S-Video is a signal, not a format it is best to always use s-video over composite because it eliminates the dot crawl and other less desirable "features" of composite signal. The way I understand it is that VHS cassette is a medium, and audio and video information is written on it using magnetic encoding. This is analog, not digital. I can output that video information using composite or s-video signal. In this case, I am not using all the resolution possible in s-video, but I still get the other benefits of it. This is similar to plugging your dvd player into your tv using composite or s-video, but reserve logic. In this example, the video is at a hight resolution than s-video and composite. Using composite is still limiting my output to the constraints of composite. A digital example of this would be watching a video you download off the internet that is at a low resolution. Your Monitor can display high resolution video, but it doesn't have to if the source is not high.

Wikipedia says:
"The situation with VCRs is a bit unusual; the common S-Video connector was designed for Super VHS and Hi8 VCRs as a high-bandwidth video connection, and has been used for the same purpose on a great number of other consumer devices, coming into greatest prominence with the rise of the DVD format. Many digital, and all Hi-8, and S-VHS-C camcorders support S-Video out as well. Standard VHS VCRs do not put out a high enough resolution signal to saturate an S-Video connection, and therefore most such units, even those in combination units with DVD players (which commonly use S-Video or component outputs), require the output from the VHS deck to go through a composite video or RF connection."

I have read in forums of people stating that they DVD / Combo unit does output VHS via s-video, so I don't know who to believe. If the people in the forum are right, how is this being done by the manufacturers?

I also read from a person in another forum that you should not convert back in forth unless a good reason. For example if source was originally recording using composite then transfer to DVD using composite. I'm not sure that makes sense to me. S-video is a signal used to transmit the video information over the cable, not an encoding of information on the tape itself.

Here, someone else says the opposite: "Composite i/o will subject the signal to much more processing (and quality degradation) than S-video will. A copy made via composite i/o will always look worse than a copy made via S-Video i/o no matter what the source format is. Also, the copy will always be inferior to the master (source) tape in terms of quality. All you can do is limit the amount of damage you do to the signal.

I have no clear proof of whether s-video is better to use for analog camcorders that didn't have s-video output, but it makes sense to me that s-video should always be used when possible. However, I have found some hard evidence and reasoning to use s-video. (My logic was right). I think I found the best reason and clear explanation of why to use s-video over composite. The answer is dot crawl and it is only in composite, not video. It basically makes the picture not as clear. It is recommended to use S-Video to transmit analog video (which is what vhs is). Check out the info here.

The real question is what is the best and most cost effective way of getting VHS to be transmitted on s-video. There are three options.
1. Get a S-VHS vcr. They seem to be extremely expensive and for the most part professional equipment (with a couple of exceptions). I think I found a consumer model for around $500 if I remember correctly. The rest where professional line and cost in the thousands typically. I can't see this as being very economically feasible for the difference between composite and s-video.

2. Get a VCR/DVD combo. Most of them seem to have s-video built into them. The only question is which of them run the vhs out on them. I have read that some of them only use the s-video for DVD, and not the VCR. So, this may be trial and error until the right unit is found that uses s-video for vcr also. Do NOT worry about the up-conversion features even the ones that say they do it for VHS also. It just doesn't matter since it is display only. Meaning you have to use the HDMI connection and connect it to you tv. I don't know of any computer that accepts HDMI as a source for video capture.

The second part of this choice is whether to get the DVD Recorder instead of just a DVD player. This is a nice option if you want to not use a computer and just burn to the DVD directory from the tape. Please be advised that DVD's have a relatively short shelf life and will need to be recopied every 2-5 years or so. The source for this is: http://www.film-to-video.com/dirty_little_secrets.html and http://forums.afterdawn.com/thread_view.cfm/303864 or just do a google search for dvd shelf life and you will see. The manufacturers of DVD's (the ones we burn with our dvd burners on our computers, not commercially produced ones) clain much longer shelf lives, but user experience and physics say differently. Some people have experiences issues with DVDs only 6 months old. This may be because of cheaper quality DVDs, but this is unknown. Play it safe, if you are going to buy a DVD or CD for that matter, make sure it is a high quality disk. The easiest way to do that is to stick with name brands. MiniDV is still one of the best archive mediums as they can last between 30 and 100 years. No medium is forever though. A quality Hard drive is a good choice also.

So, this is why I am choosing Hard Drive and a backup of that drive also that will be stored offsite for all my family archives. DVD's are nice for convenience, but not for archiving.

whether or not to buy a dvd/vcr combo just to get s-video output that may or may not work on a particular model and if it does, is it really helping the quality of the signal. I guess one way of looking at it is if I buy a combo unit that has a dvd writer built in, I don't really have to think about it, and just hope they chose the best way to do so. If I do this, I can also try the s-video out port with vcr to see if it works. Hey, I can even compare the the machine vs. computer made dvds. :)

It hit me after looking for s-video vcrs. Why not go to component video, it is analog as well and provides superior quality to any other analog medium! Unfortunately, my capture card does have connectivity for it. And I don't think I want to mess with component video given the less than industry standards that exist. I think I will be able to get much more consistent results with s-video.

Regardless of whether you choose s-video or component video, I have found that http://www.crutchfield.com is an EXCELLENT place to research the connections each DVD/VCR combo unit has and if they work for VCR or DVD or both. So far, I have found the following units that they say have s-video and / or component video for the vcr portion of the unit.

LG RC797T $299
LG RC700N $199 (may work, it doesn't say for sure)
Sony RDR-VX555 $229
Toshiba D-VR650 $250 (My guess is that it will work, but it is not clear Crutchfield or other Toshiba manuals). Toshiba also seems to have bad reviews in general, especially for their low end models. I can't really recommend this one based on that.
Panasonic makes a model that has "DVD priority" output like the Toshiba (no bad reputation though that I know of), but again, I don't know exactly what that means. This product was not on Crutchfield though.

Analog to Digital Capture Cards and USB devices for computers
http://www.videoguys.com/vidcap.htm

Good article on how to convert VHS to DVD
http://www.signvideo.com/conv-v-to-d.htm